Celebrity CMS Deathmatch – The Aftermath
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After losin’ every battle.
- IDIOT WIND
Part 1: The Beginning
Part 2: The Meme Spreads
Part 3: The Aftermath
Right, it is time to draw this chapter to a close. If you don’t know what this is all about, please read Part 1 and Part 2 mentioned above first. There has been a great response, and there is talk that an ECM focused meme will start soon too. This has been reported by Julian Wraith, who also did an excellent job keep track of all the responses. Thanks! Google Bertrand Delacrétaz’s Meme ID to find everything there is to find: 9c56d0fcf93175d70e1c9b9d188167cf.
For the record, the 24 vendors that responded (with links to their responses) are: Jahia, Ektron, Hippo CMS , Magnolia, EPiServer, Nuxeo, GX, Midgard, Knowledge Tree, infopark, Day, Alfresco, CoreMedia, Sitecore, OpenText, Alterian, dotCMS, Vignette, Autonomy/Interwoven and Escenic. Not yet in the table: eZ Systems, e-Spirit, Enano, Sense/Net.
Below is my summary of the results. Click the image for a larger version. Please note that everything here is extremely subjective. You’d be insane to use this as part of any vendor selection exercise!
Summary of the Scores
Notes on the scoring:
- Vendors shown with a blue background did not score themselves. So I scored them based on what I think their answers meant.
- GX gave themselves a 0 and a 1, where they meant a 1 and a 2. So their score rises from 40 to 42.
The Overwhelming Yes Questions
These questions had an average score of 2.8 and above:
- Amazingly, everyone thought their Software Does What It Says it did. That’s great news for the CMS buyer. Everyone is honest
. Most don’t even try to justify this, although Ektron justify their reply with the fact that they have “more WCMS implementations than any other vendor in the marketplace”. I’d be interested to see the list/research on which this is based. - They all claim to have a Free SDK. I wonder if Kas Thomas had a vendor in mind when he put that question onto the list?
- The No Reboot topic caused a bit of controversy, with three vendors claiming it isn’t important. I disagree with this. A reboot doesn’t cause any downtime in a load balanced environment, but I feel it is architecturally wrong for the CMS to go so close to the Operating System to warrant one.
- Alfresco were the only ones to admit that they need their technical presales engineers to help the Sales Guys. Maybe the other vendors included these techies as part of the sales team so gave themselves full marks.
- Again, Alfresco were the only ones that confessed their Sample Site wasn’t great. I’ve seen a lot of these sample sites, and some of them are really quite dire. I think a few more vendors should have given themselves a “Sort Of” here. But I guess the question did not ask for a Good sample site, so they are technically honest. They all have a Tutorial, most of which are good.
- Three vendors admitted that they didn’t have a Full Installer. dotCMS lost some points here, but at least it is on their roadmap. I do think that the Hippo were a bit hard on themselves. I prefer a standard EAR/WAR deployment to an install Wizard, especially in a large, clustered environment. A One Click Update question would have brought some interesting answers as upgrades are often much hard than installs.
The Differentiator Questions
These questions had an average score below 2.8:
- About half the vendors struggled on the No English challenge. The smaller US based vendors normally do worse here as many of their clients are single language. The European based vendors live and breath multi-language every day.
- Interwoven is the only vendor that does not offer a Download. Six others offer one with conditions attached.
- Most vendors eat their own Dogfood, apart from SiteCore, who drink their own pre-release champagne. Quite a few aren’t on the latest version though. Escenic gave themselves a 1 for this, while many other vendors gave themselves a 2. And I’m taking bets on when Vignette’s site is going to be running V7.6. KnowledgeTree gave themselves a very kind 3 seeing as they don’t do WCM. But their score does prove that most of the questions are noting to do with WCM and could apply to almost any software vendor.
- Escenic were the only ones that admitted their Price List is able to “adapt to a large variety of customers”. I believe that all the major vendors do this, and that the price can vary enormously. Maybe the answers refer to list price as opposed to the actual golf-course price, but I think Escenic showed honesty here that some of the others could have done. Vignette did also admit their model is complex. Half claim a 5-year old could understand it. But I hope this five year old can also drink a lot in the pub and negotiate a good discount or he is going to get screwed.
- Surprisingly, the question with the lowest average score was the Raise Issues From Product one. All vendors have an issue logging system, so this would be extremely simple to implement. It could just be a link from the admin screens to the support screens.
- The most controversial question was probably the All Help Files And Documentation are Part of the Install. Now I’m going to disagree with Kas on this and side with some of the vendors. I prefer online documentation to local installation for a number of reasons: It is kept up to date and continuously enhanced, it can include user submitted contributions, it can be powered by an advanced search engine, it can contain offsite links, and I don’t like having extra items installed on the servers. I do like to have a local of the SDK, but this should be embedded in the IDE and be an optional extra download as part of the SDK. And if people do still work when they are offline, the ability to download all the documentation would be a bonus.
The Jon Vendor Meme Awards 2009
Any great competition needs an awards ceremony. So, in the spirit in which this whole contest was conducted, I’m honoured to be able to announce:
- The Jon Award For Transparency goes to Escenic. Sure they came stone last, but I trust the guys.
- The Jon Award For Agility Above And Beyond Expectations goes to Vignette. I really didn’t expect them to respond, yet they were the first ECM player to do so.
- The Jon Award For The Best Product Name goes to Hippo CMS. Of course.
- The Jon Award For Anti-Cheating goes to Nuxeo, who miscounted their score on the low side. I’ve added a point to their reported score.
And thanks once again to Kas Thomas for his “A reality checklist for vendors“, and Day for starting this party, giving CMS geeks like me something to smile about. It’s been real.
UPDATE: 28 March 2009 – Added KnowledgeTree and Ektron.
UPDATE: 03 April 2009 – eZ Systems have responded. I’ll update the chart when I have more time.
UPDATE: 08 April 2009 – e-Spirit set themselves up for a fall by giving themselves a perfect score. Anyone know enough to see if they’re being cheeky? Not a vendor I know much about sadly. 45/45 seems a bold claim to make. They didn’t publish any contact details for question 15. I notice @espirit_news joined Twiter 15 minutes ago. Just in time. Well done, e-Spirit! Thanks for playing.
UPDATE: 09 April 2009 – Adding Enano (seeing Julian included them in his list) and Sense/Net.
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[...] – bold scores are where the vendor did not score themselves but it was subsequentally worked out by Jon Marks [...]
Great post, I’ve even updated the scores on mine to reflect the summaries you made. Thanks!
Glad to be agile and surprise folks every now and then … thanks for the summary.
I like the awards you’ve given. And great summary chart. (Though it’s a bit hypnotizing the way it weaves. And do I see the silhouette of some Atari 2600 game in there?)
I’m with Kas on the documentation though. For some reason, many vendors think it’s a great idea to be able to keep updating the documentation. However, that implies that they don’t think they can get it right at launch of a new version (unfortunately, they’re mostly right about that).
Paradoxically, another annoying habit of online documentation is that it’s usually about the latest version. Not all customers (in fact, very few) immediately update to the new version. Some wait a long time. They need documentation on the version *they’re* using, and many vendors don’t keep separate (matching) versions of the docs.
I’m still clinging on to the PDFs I have for older versions of many products. They’re usually long gone from the vendor’s sites…
Jon (great post, BTW), you said “Amazingly, everyone thought their Software Does What It Says it did. That’s great news for the CMS buyer. Everyone is honest. They all claim to have a Free SDK. I wonder if Kas Thomas had a vendor in mind when he put that question onto the list?”
Let me comment briefly on the “Software does what we say it does” item, as well as the “free SDK” bit.
I included the item on software doing “what we say it does” not because I thought any vendor would answer No, but because this complaint comes up again and again in customer satisfaction research. Amazingly, a major cause of customer dissatisfaction is that software doesn’t do what that the customer thought it would do! Obviously, vendors cannot be expected to score themselves fairly on this question. It should shock no one that every vendor believes their software does what they say it will do. The Zen koan that everyone should be considering is: Why the disconnect? Why do customers so often say that they are disappointed by software not doing what they were led to believe it would do, when vendors uniformly say there’s no problem here?
As for vendors charging money for SDKs, this is something I actually do see, believe it or not, especially among DAM vendors. Sometimes it’s a case of “if you sign up for our $5000 developer training course, you get the SDK for free” (but otherwise you don’t). Whether the SDK comes with a SKU number and a price tag or not isn’t the point, in any case. One way or another, you pay to use it. The point is whether the SDK is kept hidden, under lock and key, out of view of people who haven’t paid Big Money to see it, or is made freely available to anyone and everyone.
My view is pretty simple. SDKs should be free and posted on the public-facing company web site (not a password-protected extranet). Hiding API doc, SDKs, etc., makes no sense to me. Unless, of course, you are ashamed of your APIs or SDK. In which case it makes perfect sense to keep it hidden.
Yes, I was joking about the Does What It Says On The Tin question. I’ve added a wink to the posting so as not to confuse in future. I see the disconnect you talk about all the time. In my view, the two main reasons for this are:
a) The questions asked by the customer are too broad so the vendor can answer yes with a reasonably clear conscience. But they do sometimes push the boundaries a bit here. I don’t think vendors lie blatantly about the capabilities, but some of the sales guys will say yes to everyone without actually knowing if the product complies. Or even, sometimes, what the question means.
b) Poor implementations, either by an inhouse team, a partner or even the vendor themselves. A badly configured CMS, as you know, isn’t going to do things smoothly. And the deliver side functionality is very dependent on the implementation, not the CMS.
On the SDK question, I was interested to know if you thoughts any of the vendors that responded were being shifty, or if they all do really give it away without any strings attached.
Thanks again for your reply.
Thanks for The Jon Award For Transparancy! We appreciate it! We will do our best to keep it up in the future.
As an example: Here is some information about soft crops for images in our upcoming 5.0-3 release: http://www.escenic.com/products/roadmap/article5896.ece
I’m glad to see the prize categories that followed the Checklist. Congratulations to a well conducted survey, Jon.
This is a quirky enough analysis that I’m actually going to link to it on my blogroll right now.
The truth is, you probably could put ANY kind of software product on this matrix and ask the same questions, since quite frankly some of these products bear no resemblance other than the vendors call them either WCMS or CMS or ECM ‘solutions.’
Thumbs up on this study, it feels a little to CMS/ECM as Jon Stewart is to real news (actually, some of his news is more incisive than the real stuff).
Jon, this was a great idea, and it worked well! I’d just add one more award – a Turkey award for all the vendors that didn’t participate: Drupal, ezPublish, Fatwire, Joomla, Oracle, Percussion, Plone, Tridion, WebGUI…
I think you need to name and shame the Turkey’s with your new list of CMS Vendors on Twitter
I’m also really interested to know how Ektron determined that they have the most WCMS installations. Maybe they’re counting eWebEditPro installations too. Regardless, if someone has counted I’d love to get my hands on the results.
Hi Jon, Ektron was NOT counting eWebEditPro installations in our response. We accurately count over 7,000 WCMS installations. If another vendor wants to say they’ve had more, we’d love to hear that response.
Thanks so much for doing the extra dilligence of putting the scores and commentary together. It was good and fun professional exercise.
-Dave Twitter @ektrondave
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Here was our CMS meme: Vendor Meme – Enano CMS
Thanks for the reply, Enano dudes. However, at the risk of sounding sizest, you probably aren’t big enough yet for me to change the spreadsheet to include you. Many of the questions actually relate to the vendor and process more than the product and, as you say, “we aren’t a company” and “we don’t sell anything”. Maybe next year when you’ve taken the world by storm
I kinda figured that, but then again, neither do Drupal, WordPress, and others. I highly doubt we will take the world by storm unless we got somebody big to actually use our CMS. Heh, we could always hope
Picking up and as an extension to Kas Thomas’s comment – he is correct that the way some vendors disguise the cost of the SDK is via ‘if you have been trained’ – also its one thing for a vendor to present they have an SDK and API (and most did) – its another to state that its OPEN, fully documented and available with no training at no extra cost to the customer AND supported (I can think of two vendors that happily claim they have an SDK – but omit to tell the customer that whilst its free, they cant have it – in addition its all very well having an SDK – but if the customer uses it and gets the NMP response when he gets stuck – what value does it have (and hidden costs)? – equally if a customer writes extensions in the SDK that have no upgrade path when the vendor issues new releases (id est the API is Open but not a ‘standard Open API’ or the SDK is in flux – what options does the customer have? is the SDK covered in the vendors support contract for example?)……. so many questions that remain unanswered…..
Lest we forget – most vendors are extremely experienced in filling in tender and RFI documents that get assessed for their merit – including evading the question in the first place and answering the one you would prefer – to coin the phrase ‘the devil is in the detail’ would put it mildly – and reading the responses to a number of vendors definately put a competitive smile on my face……..
Even though not tagged Sense/Net entered this meme as well. Our response: Vendor Meme – Sense/Net
45/45 for e-Spirit does seem a bit bold. For the past 15 minutes I’ve been trying to obtain an evaluation product. Sadly it is not publicly available, only for registered users. Problem is I cant find where to register or login. Now thats something I would not mark 3/3 for the evaluation copy.
I have some thoughts about the gamekeeper/poacher topic. I have given many presentations about our CMS. One thing I found useful is to tell the truth, or actually show the software in a live demo. There is no better sales strategy than to let the customer decide.
Imagine the poor customer listening to the 6th presentation in a row, all claiming to be the holy effing grail of CMS. And than it is your turn, and you admit there are some bugs and funny GUIs. I have won many tenders with this strategy. You can not imagine those eyes wide open when I said we have bugs.
The other is open source. What I tell customers is to go and download it, find out for yourself. If the IT guys are not that busy, they can even check ut the source, at least the API parts.
I always wonder how people dare to decide on a CMS based on a written proposal, still many companies do.
I’m still confused by the *Alterian* entry. Were Alterian referring to Immediacy or Morello? AFAIK, if it was Immediacy, you can’t say goodbye to the English interface completely?
@James H: you’re right of course. Commercial imperative demands products that tick boxes and demo well. But just try living with such a thing! Poacher or gamekeeper….
Scratching my head here, because software that does not have a primary single vendor (e.g. Plone) will not get included because it is not a vendor response to a questionnaire that assumes a vendor must respond, which seems (if not circular) certainly limiting. It seems like you assume that the open-source systems with thriving communities will have a single sugar-daddy vendor (for example, Apache Jackrabbit has Day, but this methodology might not recognize it also has ASF and an ecosystem too); a vendor with the community-gravity of a neutron star is not always the case in all commercially successful free/open software. Be careful when you pick and choose what you consider outliers?
http://francescociriaci.wordpress.com/2009/11/19/we-get-it-checklist-for-vendors-plone/#comment-63
A tangent about comparing enterprise vendors to commercial community support: In enterprise search, I had to suffer sales presentations at a former employer from FAST where they constantly maligned our primary choice of Solr as not having a single throat to choke — they never purchased FAST and started slowly adopting usage of Solr with self-support. Now that Solr has a more robust primary-vendor sales channel (via Lucid Imagination), it might make Solr more attractive to the same companies that need hand-holding, high-transaction-cost sales process, but only for companies that have broken tech acquisition process (I would much rather see enterprise F/OSS vendors like this succeed for the quality of their customers, not the lack thereof). You should judge vendors (or channels of vendors) on the availability of commercial support and pre-sale consulting options, not the availability of sales staff with a product-agenda that trumps the agenda of the customer.
Disclaimer: I dabble as an occasional Plone consultant, and have made money from employment at user companies related to Plone/Zope for the past 10 years.
Sean
Hi Sean,
I agree with absolutely everything you’ve said. I think the main point here though is that this list/survey/competition really is nothing to do with the product. It’s all about the vendors, and their perception of themselves. I trust the answers they volunteer not at all. In fact, I’d say the lower the better!
Maybe this kind of thing is more meaningful for a Plone/Drupal/Joomla!/Umbraco kind of ecosystem?
http://jonontech.com/2009/05/12/cms-celebrity-deathmatch-the-developers-speak/
Jon
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Looking at this from a ‘gamekeeper became poacher grew to become gamekeeper’ angle I even have to say there are quite some of activities when I have sat in income presentations to potential CMS consumers and cringed on the misleading data the sales man or woman is giving and the anomaly with which questions are handled.
I suppose the query about ‘does the CMS seller devour their own canine food’ may be extended to invite whilst became the remaining time the income character really attempted to use the device they are promoting for the things the client is looking instead of using a attempted and examined canned demo?
As in all income eventualities that conventional Latin word ‘caveat emptor’ (permit the consumer watch out) applies and the onus is on the potential customer to call for a complete get admission to path and to talk without delay to other clients.
The upward thrust of open source and its related community followings has pressured proprietary carriers to grow to be more transparent and CMS Watch has pushed this in addition with the aid of telling people searching for products/services to search for solutions that have huge and energetic person bases and communities.
In the proprietary surroundings I agree with there is a point whilst the CMS Vendor CEOs prevent truly being concerned approximately their product and customers and using sales (in any respect value) will become the all ingesting goal. When you look at the pressures they face in buying the overheads and retaining the City and shareholders happy this is comprehensible but every now and then I don’t think they understand how these financially driven attitudes occur themselves for the duration of the rest in their enterprises on the rate of the passion for handing over a excessive excellent product and truly delivering what customers want.
The herbal development from that is acquisition and consolidation which, as we’ve got seen performed out infinite instances, frequently sees product development stall and leaves clients thinking whilst the ones long standing product ‘pain factors’ are ever going to get resolved.
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Extremely good point re: older versions. I’d forgotten about the pain that’s caused me in the past. Maybe that does swing it back. Although I do find the ever-growing knowledge bases and user generated forum content more useful than the docs I get at install time.
I would expect the vendor to get the SDK docs right at release, but code samples and gotchas only start to surface properly once the product gets used in the real world.
Looking at this from a ‘gamekeeper turned poacher turned gamekeeper’ perspective I have to say there are quite a number of occasions when I have sat in sales presentations to prospective CMS buyers and cringed at the misleading information the sales person is giving and the ambiguity with which questions are handled.
I think the question about ‘does the CMS vendor eat their own dog food’ could be extended to ask when was the last time the sales person actually tried to use the system they are selling for the things the customer is asking rather than using a tried and tested canned demo?
As in all sales scenarios that classic Latin phrase ‘caveat emptor’ (let the buyer beware) applies and the onus is on the prospective buyer to demand a full access trail and to speak directly to other customers.
The rise of open source and its associated community followings has forced proprietary vendors to become more transparent and CMS Watch has pushed this further by telling prospective buyers to look for solutions that have wide and active user bases and communities.
In the proprietary environment I believe there is a point when the CMS Vendor CEOs stop really caring about their product and customers and driving sales (at all cost) becomes the all consuming goal. When you look at the pressures they face in paying for the overheads and keeping the City and shareholders happy this is understandable but sometimes I don’t think they realise how these financially driven attitudes manifest themselves throughout the rest of their organisations at the expense of the passion for delivering a high quality product and really delivering what customers want.
The natural progression from this is acquisition and consolidation which, as we have seen played out countless times, often sees product development stall and leaves customers wondering when those long standing product ‘pain points’ are ever going to get resolved.
So, when you were a poacher, did you ever feel uncomfortable with the things you said to a prospect? If not, is sitting there cringing silently while your sales team sprouts misleading or ambiguous information any better?
I think it is quite a fine line, though. I err on the side of brutal honesty and, as a result, a couple of our Client Services Team (our word for sales people) would rather I didn’t go to their meetings. If the competition is all claiming something is easy, you might not even get your foot in the door if you say it might not be.
Seeing my team are the ones that have to deliver the thing, I’d rather not win something that we can’t deliver according to the client’s expectations. I don’t get commission