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	<title>Comments on: Celebrity CMS Deathmatch &#8211; The Aftermath</title>
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	<link>http://jonontech.com/2009/03/25/celebrity-cms-deathmatch-part-3/</link>
	<description>Confessions of a Digital Agency Nerd</description>
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		<title>By: Jon Marks</title>
		<link>http://jonontech.com/2009/03/25/celebrity-cms-deathmatch-part-3/#comment-4375</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Marks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 20:10:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jonontech.wordpress.com/?p=227#comment-4375</guid>
		<description>Hi Sean,

I agree with absolutely everything you&#039;ve said. I think the main point here though is that this list/survey/competition really is nothing to do with the product. It&#039;s all about the vendors, and their perception of themselves. I trust the answers they volunteer not at all. In fact, I&#039;d say the lower the better!

Maybe this kind of thing is more meaningful for a Plone/Drupal/Joomla!/Umbraco kind of ecosystem?
http://jonontech.com/2009/05/12/cms-celebrity-deathmatch-the-developers-speak/

Jon</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Sean,</p>
<p>I agree with absolutely everything you&#8217;ve said. I think the main point here though is that this list/survey/competition really is nothing to do with the product. It&#8217;s all about the vendors, and their perception of themselves. I trust the answers they volunteer not at all. In fact, I&#8217;d say the lower the better!</p>
<p>Maybe this kind of thing is more meaningful for a Plone/Drupal/Joomla!/Umbraco kind of ecosystem?<br />
<a href="http://jonontech.com/2009/05/12/cms-celebrity-deathmatch-the-developers-speak/" rel="nofollow">http://jonontech.com/2009/05/12/cms-celebrity-deathmatch-the-developers-speak/</a></p>
<p>Jon</p>
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		<title>By: Sean Upton</title>
		<link>http://jonontech.com/2009/03/25/celebrity-cms-deathmatch-part-3/#comment-4372</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean Upton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 18:30:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jonontech.wordpress.com/?p=227#comment-4372</guid>
		<description>Scratching my head here, because software that does not have a primary single vendor (e.g. Plone) will not get included because it is not a vendor response to a questionnaire that assumes a vendor must respond, which seems (if not circular) certainly limiting.  It seems like you assume that the open-source systems with thriving communities will have a single sugar-daddy vendor (for example, Apache Jackrabbit has Day, but this methodology might not recognize it also has ASF and an ecosystem too); a vendor with the community-gravity of a neutron star is not always the case in all commercially successful free/open software.  Be careful when you pick and choose what you consider outliers?

http://francescociriaci.wordpress.com/2009/11/19/we-get-it-checklist-for-vendors-plone/#comment-63  

A tangent about comparing enterprise vendors to commercial community support: In enterprise search, I had to suffer sales presentations at a former employer from FAST where they constantly maligned our primary choice of Solr as not having a single throat to choke -- they never purchased FAST and started slowly adopting usage of Solr with self-support.  Now that Solr has a more robust primary-vendor sales channel (via Lucid Imagination), it might make Solr more attractive to the same companies that need hand-holding, high-transaction-cost sales process, but only for companies that have broken tech acquisition process (I would much rather see enterprise F/OSS vendors like this succeed for the quality of their customers, not the lack thereof).  You should judge vendors (or channels of vendors) on the availability of commercial support and pre-sale consulting options, not the availability of sales staff with a product-agenda that trumps the agenda of the customer.

Disclaimer: I dabble as an occasional Plone consultant, and have made money from employment at user companies related to Plone/Zope for the past 10 years.

Sean</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scratching my head here, because software that does not have a primary single vendor (e.g. Plone) will not get included because it is not a vendor response to a questionnaire that assumes a vendor must respond, which seems (if not circular) certainly limiting.  It seems like you assume that the open-source systems with thriving communities will have a single sugar-daddy vendor (for example, Apache Jackrabbit has Day, but this methodology might not recognize it also has ASF and an ecosystem too); a vendor with the community-gravity of a neutron star is not always the case in all commercially successful free/open software.  Be careful when you pick and choose what you consider outliers?</p>
<p><a href="http://francescociriaci.wordpress.com/2009/11/19/we-get-it-checklist-for-vendors-plone/#comment-63" rel="nofollow">http://francescociriaci.wordpress.com/2009/11/19/we-get-it-checklist-for-vendors-plone/#comment-63</a>  </p>
<p>A tangent about comparing enterprise vendors to commercial community support: In enterprise search, I had to suffer sales presentations at a former employer from FAST where they constantly maligned our primary choice of Solr as not having a single throat to choke &#8212; they never purchased FAST and started slowly adopting usage of Solr with self-support.  Now that Solr has a more robust primary-vendor sales channel (via Lucid Imagination), it might make Solr more attractive to the same companies that need hand-holding, high-transaction-cost sales process, but only for companies that have broken tech acquisition process (I would much rather see enterprise F/OSS vendors like this succeed for the quality of their customers, not the lack thereof).  You should judge vendors (or channels of vendors) on the availability of commercial support and pre-sale consulting options, not the availability of sales staff with a product-agenda that trumps the agenda of the customer.</p>
<p>Disclaimer: I dabble as an occasional Plone consultant, and have made money from employment at user companies related to Plone/Zope for the past 10 years.</p>
<p>Sean</p>
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		<title>By: John Goode</title>
		<link>http://jonontech.com/2009/03/25/celebrity-cms-deathmatch-part-3/#comment-771</link>
		<dc:creator>John Goode</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 May 2009 07:22:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jonontech.wordpress.com/?p=227#comment-771</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m still confused by the *Alterian* entry. Were Alterian referring to Immediacy or Morello? AFAIK, if it was Immediacy, you can&#039;t say goodbye to the English interface completely? 

@James H: you&#039;re right of course. Commercial imperative demands products that tick boxes and demo well. But just try living with such a thing! Poacher or gamekeeper….</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m still confused by the *Alterian* entry. Were Alterian referring to Immediacy or Morello? AFAIK, if it was Immediacy, you can&#8217;t say goodbye to the English interface completely? </p>
<p>@James H: you&#8217;re right of course. Commercial imperative demands products that tick boxes and demo well. But just try living with such a thing! Poacher or gamekeeper….</p>
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		<title>By: BiroTom</title>
		<link>http://jonontech.com/2009/03/25/celebrity-cms-deathmatch-part-3/#comment-162</link>
		<dc:creator>BiroTom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Apr 2009 16:46:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jonontech.wordpress.com/?p=227#comment-162</guid>
		<description>I have some thoughts about the gamekeeper/poacher topic. I have given many presentations about our CMS. One thing I found useful is to tell the truth, or actually show the software in a live demo. There is no better sales strategy than to let the customer decide.

Imagine the poor customer listening to the 6th presentation in a row, all claiming to be the holy effing grail of CMS. And than it is your turn, and you admit there are some bugs and funny GUIs. I have won many tenders with this strategy. You can not imagine those eyes wide open when I said we have bugs. :-)

The other is open source. What I tell customers is to go and download it, find out for yourself. If the IT guys are not that busy, they can even check ut the source, at least the API parts. 

I always wonder how people dare to decide on a CMS based on a written proposal, still many companies do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have some thoughts about the gamekeeper/poacher topic. I have given many presentations about our CMS. One thing I found useful is to tell the truth, or actually show the software in a live demo. There is no better sales strategy than to let the customer decide.</p>
<p>Imagine the poor customer listening to the 6th presentation in a row, all claiming to be the holy effing grail of CMS. And than it is your turn, and you admit there are some bugs and funny GUIs. I have won many tenders with this strategy. You can not imagine those eyes wide open when I said we have bugs. <img src='http://jonontech.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>The other is open source. What I tell customers is to go and download it, find out for yourself. If the IT guys are not that busy, they can even check ut the source, at least the API parts. </p>
<p>I always wonder how people dare to decide on a CMS based on a written proposal, still many companies do.</p>
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		<title>By: Gergely Orosz</title>
		<link>http://jonontech.com/2009/03/25/celebrity-cms-deathmatch-part-3/#comment-155</link>
		<dc:creator>Gergely Orosz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Apr 2009 14:02:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jonontech.wordpress.com/?p=227#comment-155</guid>
		<description>45/45 for e-Spirit does seem a bit bold. For the past 15 minutes I&#039;ve been trying to obtain an evaluation product. Sadly it is not publicly available, only for registered users. Problem is I cant find where to register or login. Now thats something I would not mark 3/3 for the evaluation copy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>45/45 for e-Spirit does seem a bit bold. For the past 15 minutes I&#8217;ve been trying to obtain an evaluation product. Sadly it is not publicly available, only for registered users. Problem is I cant find where to register or login. Now thats something I would not mark 3/3 for the evaluation copy.</p>
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		<title>By: Gergely Orosz</title>
		<link>http://jonontech.com/2009/03/25/celebrity-cms-deathmatch-part-3/#comment-154</link>
		<dc:creator>Gergely Orosz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Apr 2009 13:30:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jonontech.wordpress.com/?p=227#comment-154</guid>
		<description>Even though not tagged Sense/Net entered this meme as well. Our response: &lt;a href=&quot;http://blog.sensenet.hu/post/2009/04/09/CMS-Vendor-Meme-The-SenseNet-60-response.aspx&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Vendor Meme - Sense/Net&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Even though not tagged Sense/Net entered this meme as well. Our response: <a href="http://blog.sensenet.hu/post/2009/04/09/CMS-Vendor-Meme-The-SenseNet-60-response.aspx" rel="nofollow">Vendor Meme &#8211; Sense/Net</a></p>
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		<title>By: Steve Williams</title>
		<link>http://jonontech.com/2009/03/25/celebrity-cms-deathmatch-part-3/#comment-131</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Williams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Apr 2009 09:03:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jonontech.wordpress.com/?p=227#comment-131</guid>
		<description>Picking up and as an extension to Kas Thomas&#039;s comment - he is correct that the way some vendors disguise the cost of the SDK is via &#039;if you have been trained&#039; - also its one thing for a vendor to present they have an SDK and API (and most did) - its another to state that its OPEN, fully documented and available with no training at no extra cost to the customer AND supported (I can think of two vendors that happily claim they have an SDK - but omit to tell the customer that whilst its free, they cant have it - in addition its all very well having an SDK - but if the customer uses it and gets the NMP response when he gets stuck - what value does it have (and hidden costs)? - equally if a customer writes extensions in the SDK that have no upgrade path when the vendor issues new releases (id est the API is Open but not a &#039;standard Open API&#039; or the SDK is in flux - what options does the customer have? is the SDK covered in the vendors support contract for example?)....... so many questions that remain unanswered..... 

Lest we forget - most vendors are extremely experienced in filling in tender and RFI documents that get assessed for their merit - including evading the question in the first place and answering the one you would prefer - to coin the phrase &#039;the devil is in the detail&#039; would put it mildly - and reading the responses to a number of vendors definately put a competitive smile on my face........</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Picking up and as an extension to Kas Thomas&#8217;s comment &#8211; he is correct that the way some vendors disguise the cost of the SDK is via &#8216;if you have been trained&#8217; &#8211; also its one thing for a vendor to present they have an SDK and API (and most did) &#8211; its another to state that its OPEN, fully documented and available with no training at no extra cost to the customer AND supported (I can think of two vendors that happily claim they have an SDK &#8211; but omit to tell the customer that whilst its free, they cant have it &#8211; in addition its all very well having an SDK &#8211; but if the customer uses it and gets the NMP response when he gets stuck &#8211; what value does it have (and hidden costs)? &#8211; equally if a customer writes extensions in the SDK that have no upgrade path when the vendor issues new releases (id est the API is Open but not a &#8217;standard Open API&#8217; or the SDK is in flux &#8211; what options does the customer have? is the SDK covered in the vendors support contract for example?)&#8230;&#8230;. so many questions that remain unanswered&#8230;.. </p>
<p>Lest we forget &#8211; most vendors are extremely experienced in filling in tender and RFI documents that get assessed for their merit &#8211; including evading the question in the first place and answering the one you would prefer &#8211; to coin the phrase &#8216;the devil is in the detail&#8217; would put it mildly &#8211; and reading the responses to a number of vendors definately put a competitive smile on my face&#8230;&#8230;..</p>
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		<title>By: King InuYasha</title>
		<link>http://jonontech.com/2009/03/25/celebrity-cms-deathmatch-part-3/#comment-115</link>
		<dc:creator>King InuYasha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Apr 2009 13:03:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jonontech.wordpress.com/?p=227#comment-115</guid>
		<description>I kinda figured that, but then again, neither do Drupal, WordPress, and others. I highly doubt we will take the world by storm unless we got somebody big to actually use our CMS. Heh, we could always hope ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I kinda figured that, but then again, neither do Drupal, WordPress, and others. I highly doubt we will take the world by storm unless we got somebody big to actually use our CMS. Heh, we could always hope <img src='http://jonontech.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Jon Marks</title>
		<link>http://jonontech.com/2009/03/25/celebrity-cms-deathmatch-part-3/#comment-114</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Marks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Apr 2009 12:32:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jonontech.wordpress.com/?p=227#comment-114</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the reply, Enano dudes. However, at the risk of sounding sizest, you probably aren&#039;t big enough yet for me to change the spreadsheet to include you. Many of the questions actually relate to the vendor and process more than the product and, as you say, &quot;we aren&#039;t a company&quot; and &quot;we don&#039;t sell anything&quot;. Maybe next year when you&#039;ve taken the world by storm :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the reply, Enano dudes. However, at the risk of sounding sizest, you probably aren&#8217;t big enough yet for me to change the spreadsheet to include you. Many of the questions actually relate to the vendor and process more than the product and, as you say, &#8220;we aren&#8217;t a company&#8221; and &#8220;we don&#8217;t sell anything&#8221;. Maybe next year when you&#8217;ve taken the world by storm <img src='http://jonontech.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: King InuYasha</title>
		<link>http://jonontech.com/2009/03/25/celebrity-cms-deathmatch-part-3/#comment-113</link>
		<dc:creator>King InuYasha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Apr 2009 11:13:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jonontech.wordpress.com/?p=227#comment-113</guid>
		<description>Aww man! It&#039;s too late? Oh well...

Here was our CMS meme: &lt;a href=&quot;http://pharaohtechblog.blogspot.com/2009/04/cms-vendor-meme-enano-cms.html&quot; title=&quot;Vendor Meme - Enano CMS&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Vendor Meme - Enano CMS&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Aww man! It&#8217;s too late? Oh well&#8230;</p>
<p>Here was our CMS meme: <a href="http://pharaohtechblog.blogspot.com/2009/04/cms-vendor-meme-enano-cms.html" title="Vendor Meme - Enano CMS" rel="nofollow">Vendor Meme &#8211; Enano CMS</a></p>
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